Initial AU 407 Details

Press release from Peugeot AU pasted below my comments.

No surprises here, 2.0 petrol engine has been dropped in favour of a 2.2
engine - they share the same EW block anyway. Very interested in seeing
pricing - especially after they said they were going to chase the German marques. Note the estates are auto only.

Had a run in a 407 2.2 6sp manual sedan last weekend here in Sweden at a
rally for the Swedish Peugeot Club's 25th Anniversary. Peugeot has had a
few 407s in the country for a few months now, however the launch is not
scheduled for a few more weeks. The 2.2 is expected to be the top seller
here.

The 407 is a marked improvement over the 406 IMHO.

I'm not 100% convinced by the styling yet, from some angles it's nice, from
some angles, somewhat demented It certainly is a lot sportier and
sleeker than the 406 though, which was always a fairly conservative design.

Like other sedans which favour a coupe like roofline (cough Volvo S60
cough!), rear headroom isn't great for people 6ft and over. Generally, I
think the car has ample room, but it's definitely not a class leader. You
do get the feeling that Peugeot favoured form over function with the 407,
trying to make it seem a little more exclusive than a standard repmobile.

Materials quality has improved, only crappy plastics to be found are in the
lower parts of the cabin. A nice touch are the rear airvents in the centre
console for rear passengers, although they only adjust vertically, not
horizontally (great for the person in the centre I guess!).

The car is fairly nicely hushed, and seemed basically rattle free with
5000km on the clock. Pirelli P7s have a bit of roar on coarse chip (I don't
think noise refinement was ever a Pirelli strength, my impression reinforced
after driving a Volvo S80 with P6000s for a few days). I think the car
wouldn't mind a little more power

The ride is a little Germanic, fairly good but firm. The car certainly got
a workout on some of the more bumpy Swedish roads we drove on and you do
notice the car doesn't quite have the long leggedness of old Peugeots.
Still, it's a disciplined ride.

Climate control logic is a bit strange at times - for some reason, when it's
about 30C outside, and it's set to 20.5C inside, it wants to direct quite a
bit of air to the feet, rather than to the face. Didn't seem to get much
air from the centre console rear vents either.

Nice electronic displays on the car, the graphics are a little nicer to look
at. Generally it has a more sophisticated feel than previous generation
muxed Pugs.

Would I buy one? I thought it was a nice car and would have to give it some
serious consideration. The only thing to bear in mind is - do you trust
Peugeot with $60,000 hard earned ones? If I were in the market for such a
car, that would be my main obstacle to buying one (PS, it does have
COM2000s!). I would certainly wait a year before committing to one.

Attached is a pic of the 407 behind a 505 - how times have changed.
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Peugeot Announces 407 Model Range
http://www.autoweb.com.au/cms/A_102253/newsarticle.html

12 August, 2004

Peugeot Automobiles Australia has just released the first details on the 407
model range, which will make it’s public debut at the Sydney Motor show in
October.

Dealerships around the country are set to receive their first shipments of
the all new 407 in mid-September, in anticipation for a co-ordinated
National launch. The 407 looks set to become a popular new model, with it’s dramatic good looks, excellent driving dynamics, superb active and passive safety features as well as keen pricing which represents outstanding value for money.

The 407 will be offered in both Sedan and Touring, with the choice of
petrol and diesel engines. The range consists of:

Sedan

407 ST
2.2 litre petrol
Manual (6 speed) or Automatic

407 ST
2.0 litre diesel
Manual (6 speed) or Automatic

407 SV
3.0 litre petrol
6 speed Automatic

Touring

407 ST
2.2 litre petrol
Automatic

407 ST
2.0 litre diesel
Automatic

407 SV
3.0 litre petrol
6 speed Automatic

With it’s dynamically engineered chassis featuring new double wishbone front suspension and multi-link rear suspension and an advanced engine line-up that includes refined and powerful petrol and diesel engines, with new Euro IV technology, the 407 will take it’s market segment into new territory.

The 407 will offer Australian drivers a number of firsts for a car in this
class.

Amongst the innovations is a transverse mounted high-torque 6 speed
automatic gearbox for the 407 SV, available for the first time in the world.

Additionally, all manual models in the 407 range will feature 6-speed
gearboxes as standard.

The 407 will also continue Peugeot’s diesel market leadership, with the
latest generation engines fitted with a particulate filter as standard on
the diesel range. The 2.0 litre diesel power plant generates 100kW and an
impressive 320Nm of torque.

Safety is a priority at Peugeot, and the 407 recently achieved a maximum 5
star score in the latest Euro NCAP crash test results. Leading it’s class,
the 407 is equipped with 8 airbags as standard – driver and passenger
airbags, front and rear side airbags and curtain airbags that protect the
heads of both the front and rear occupants. The 407 is also packed with
active safety features, such as ABS, an Electronic Stability Program and
Electronic Brake Force Distribution, just to name a few.

Outstanding standard equipment levels will ensure that the 407 receives
significant attention. Standard features include climate control, cruise
control, 17 inch alloy wheels, auto headlights and rain sensing wipers, park
distance control, remote central locking, radio and CD (including stacker)
and metallic paint.

Pricing and final specification will be announced closer to the actual
launch date of the car.

Picture attached of a 505 and a 407.

Justin, that is a much better angle for the 407. Looks OK in that pic.
Hope you're having fun. Are you living with Peugeot fanciers there or what?

My friend works at the restaurant where they held the launch for the 407 in Auckland. He had a go with the six speed model, awesome drive apparently and he is not a 'Peugeot person'.

After seeing them up close and driving on the street I am definetely enjoying the looks of the 407.

Warwick said:

Justin, that is a much better angle for the 407. Looks OK in that pic.

Click to expand...

You have to be careful with the angle you use when snapping the 407. The rear looks fairly normal, but the car does have its demented angles, which I tried to avoid.

Warwick said:

Hope you're having fun. Are you living with Peugeot fanciers there or what?

Click to expand...

Nope - just was the PCCV ambassador for the Swedish Peugeot Club's 25th year anniversary. Good bunch of people here.

Attached is a pic of the 407 behind a 505 - how times have changed...

Click to expand...

...for the better? I don't think so. Obviously the 505 is an old design and looks it... but it is a nicely balanced design, good proportions, it's elegant, the wheels are well placed and it sits nicely on the road. Timeless, really. A nice 505 GTi still looks good.

As for the 407, in my opinion it isn't a nicely balanced design, doesn't have good proportions, possibly elegant from some angles, and the wheels are poorly placed compared to overhangs. I don't think it's a timeless design.

Anyway, that's progress.

John

The 407 looks a lot better in the metal then in any photograph.

BBC Top Gear done a road test the other week on TV, They liked it.

They parked it next to a Mondeo & Vectra & it really stood out from those 2 Euroboxes.

They liked the chassis & it went very well round the corners when they threw it round a race track, The only comment was the engine was a bit gutless, So I would wait for the 2.7 V6 HDI twin turbo diesel

They also had Peugeot ship a 1007 to the studio & showed off it party trick of remote opening sliding doors

Everybody in the studio was really impressed with the baby Pug

For the 407 to be competitive in the next few years it will have to offer the following combination of things in one package:

-class equivalent safety
-class equivalent quality
-AWD
-180kW, 300Nm
-choice of 6 speed manual or 5/6 speed auto
-leather interior
-all this for under $55,000

In essence, it needs to be able to compete head on with the Subaru Liberty 3.0R. If it can't do this, then it has to offer something completely different (like an innovative turbodiesel/hybrid combination). Either way, there's no decent excuse for not offering AWD in 2004.

Peugeot have squandered the experience they gained 10-20 years ago with AWD. They could have been a class leader.

It looks like the 407 is only going to meet a 1/2 to 3/4 of the features listed above, in the $50,000 to $55,000 class, and so it will only be an "also ran". What a pity!

Dave

I agree with most of your points Dave except for the AWD feature.

I really don't think AWD is that necessary.

AWD is going to add weight, lower fuel consumption and slow the car down. Now I know there is a percieved handling advantage, but I don't think it is to the extent people believe.

Well, if the 407 was to need an AWD system it would only be for a very high power model say 200kW+. But then given Peugeot's history can you see this happening?

We all know Peugeot produce excellent FWD cars, for anything but very high power models, AWD is not going to improve the handling.

I see AWD as a bit of a fad of late, with manufacturers jumping on the 'go anywhere' line. I appreciate Audi and Subaru's persistance with AWD and they have taken advantage of it, but I just don't think the 407 would gain from this except when it would be necessary in a 200kW+ model.

Even then, Peugeot are smart, and going with double-wishbone front suspension on the 407 was a great move. This layout goes a long way to countering the inherent understeer in a FWD layout and allows you to put a lot more power to the ground.

The 407 has class equivalent safety (or above?), it's quality is up there, it has a 6 speed gearbox and a 5/6 speed automatic gearbox. The interior is well appointed and most importantly it rides superbly and handles brilliantly.

As far as the price goes, there's not much I can say.

Louis said:

I really don't think AWD is that necessary.

AWD is going to add weight, lower fuel consumption and slow the car down. Now I know there is a percieved handling advantage, but I don't think it is to the extent people believe..

Click to expand...

I agree, the lower powered models don't necessarily need it, but the 3 litre would definitely benefit. It's MUCH better to have 290Nm distributed between four wheels than just two, especially on slippery surfaces.

If it is done right, AWD probably wouldn't add any more weight than some of the silly unnessary electric "luxury" stuff which can add up to 100kg or more.

AWD axles and differentials don't have to be as big for a given engine size as 2WD ones, because they're transmitting less torque (have alook under a Subaru and you''ll be surprised how small the differentials are compared to 2WD cars with the same torque).

Personally I think it should be illegal to transmit anymore than say 200Nm per tonne through just 2 wheels on a road car in 2004. It's really primitive.

Dave

I was reading a comparison in a CAR mag between the Honda Accord Euro, Peugeot 407 2.2 and the Subaru Legacy (Liberty) 2.0. They said unfortunately it was pouring down with rain when they took the cars on the test track. However what surprised them the most was the Peugeot and Honda had better grip than the Subaru. The Honda never deviated from its line. The 407 would swing its tail a little if you lift off, however it was very easy to control, and the ESP system can nip it in the bud if it is turned on. The AWD Subaru however demonstrated dangerous oversteer characteristics. At one point when the 407 lost its tail a little the Subaru went into a four-wheel drift.

Now I know that is on the race track, and is different to driving on the roads. We have relatives who are obsessed with Subaru, and I've driven an Outback and a WRX and appreciate the secure feeling of AWD, but that doesn't mean it is always better.

Dave: Even then, I don't think the standard 210bhp 3.0 407 needs AWD. The double-wishbone suspension takes care of things and the large weight of the car + large tyres offset that power level.

I am not convinced that AWD is necessary except for extremely high power levels (when the car is normally FWD) and for actual off-roading.

Let's be honest here, people are not going to take the 407 off-road. So that negates that element that Subaru choose to push for.

But yes, if Peugeot did indeed decide to push for more than 200kW I'd say an AWD system would be necessary. But at this point in time I can't see a 407 of that power being released. Don't get wrong, I would love a 200kW+, AWD 407 that could eat into the market the Germans/Japanese are occupying as well as Alfa. (To clarify, the market of powerful mid level sedans, not necessarily AWD.)

To be honest I would be happy with a 6 speed manual 3.0 V6 407. With appropriate suspension changes and maybe a bit less weight. In essence a trimmed, 'sporty' 210bhp 407 with a proper 6 speed manual gearbox.

Which is a bit of a paradox at the moment, you can have the nicely sprung, sharp 407 with the 6 speed gearbox but it has to be the four cylinder. You can have the hot 210bhp V6 but it has to have the softer suspension and automatic gearbox.

When I think about it a 406 SV 3.0 V6 5 speed manual starts to sound really attractive. (Heh, I say this as a student with an old 504 Ti).

nJm: Interesting.

I think it needs to be made very clear that AWD does not mean better handling. It may mean better grip, but not better handling.

Louis said:

I think it needs to be made very clear that AWD does not mean better handling. It may mean better grip, but not better handling.

Click to expand...

I agree.

It's just that there seems to be so many cars for sale today which don't have enough traction to match their engine and gearing (and thus torque at the wheels). The Falcons we have where I work are a case in point. Even my sister's 1.6 Honda Civic and my parents 2 litre Mondeo suffer from traction problems in the wet. Maybe I'm just spoilt because the 504s and 505s I've owned have had excellent traction (although the 2 litre Cortina I had was very scary when it got wet. The slightest bit of accelerator movement and the back wheels would start spinning).

Dave

nJm said:

However what surprised them the most was the Peugeot and Honda had better grip than the Subaru. The Honda never deviated from its line. The 407 would swing its tail a little if you lift off, however it was very easy to control, and the ESP system can nip it in the bud if it is turned on. The AWD Subaru however demonstrated dangerous oversteer characteristics. At one point when the 407 lost its tail a little the Subaru went into a four-wheel drift.

.

Click to expand...

I wonder what tyres they were using?

davemcbean said:

If it is done right, AWD probably wouldn't add any more weight than some of the silly unnessary electric "luxury" stuff which can add up to 100kg or more.

Click to expand...

How's 59kg sound.

That's what the Haldex system in the Volvo V50 weighs.

The system is also found in a few VAG cars.

Justin Sounds like its a good car really. I dont think ill be getting one as its out of my price range. Id rather the C5 Replacement maybe if that came out to oz one day. The airlounge is still my dream car at presnt though....(love that plush pile carpet)..
I like the looks of the 407 much better than the 406 which i agree with you was a most conservative looking car.

I love that advert for the 407 in new zealand. Its great indeed. Hope we see that out here in australia....:headbang:

Pug307 said:

How's 59kg sound.

.

Click to expand...

Thanks. That's a good example of how little mass an AWD system can add, if done right.

Dave

davemcbean said:

Thanks. That's a good example of how little mass an AWD system can add, if done right. Dave

Click to expand...

The thing is .. Subaru is perminent AWD ... most of the others are part time systems. I think I'd prefer the predictability of perminent systems.

- XTC206 -

XTC206 said:

The thing is .. Subaru is perminent AWD ... most of the others are part time systems. I think I'd prefer the predictability of perminent systems.

- XTC206 -

Click to expand...

Perminent AWD usually weighs no more than part-time AWD and often weighs less, because there's less parts in a perminent system.

It's a pity there aren't alot more Mi16x4 type 405s in Australia. If there were, people might have a greater appreciation of what a good AWD system can be.

Dave