Modifications: PRV v6: turbo?

Ok, so I have sourced a Volvo b280e engine, computer and wiring harness/loom... complete engine incl alternator, exh pipes, even air con pump (which I am going to remove).

It’s an even fire, MPFI model, good nick (though I think will be rebuilding)...

Now... for the fun stuff... as this is all going into my 504, a few things I’d like to know... for one, turbos... I have also sourced a pair of brand new t3 turbos at very reasonable prices, though I have not bought them yet, as I don’t know if they’re big enough, the difficulty of adapting them to my engine, and in reality, I know nothing of turbo charging cars, will I need to get diff pistons to lower the CR? Any help in the turbo department would be much appreciated... the whole turbo thing has always interested me, but a lack of capital, and experience with any sort of turbo has stopped me.

As for the 504, I have already started on the brakes (have fitted '82 504 struts, and am sourcing some 264 brakes... thanks pugrambo), and have pulled out the engine. :banana:

The 604 cross member shouldn’t be too hard to find, but ill let post a wtb if I can’t find one. In any case, it will be at least 6 months before I get it on the road... I want it all to be as close to perfect as it can be.

Now, sticking to the engine, as that’s what this post is really all about... I will be pulling it apart to bare nothingness, inspecting, honing, machining, and replacing all that I need... I just got quoted a scary and ridiculous sum of 350 for a vrs kit... anyone know where to source one for a reasonable price? Or for that matter, any parts for it for a reasonable price?

So... mods I plan to do...

Bottom end
New bearings
Renew/freshen everything

Head
Port/polish
Clean up
Machine

Camshaft
As suggested, will contact crow cams for a nice cam

Turbo
2x t3 turbos, running a nice, not crazy boost

Extractors/exhaust manifold
Any ideas?

Exhaust
Straight through 2½ or 3 inch

looks like its going to be plenty more :adrink: before its all done, but its well underway now!



Janek

ps. oddfire, i have read through a lot, if not all of your posts, and have carefully spent time considering my question(s)...

as such, i know you said stick with the 2.8 oddfire, with 604 head and carby, but i'd like the efi. and i like the sound of a slightly more modern engine... atm its mainly about the turbo, but help all round would be nice

Janek said:

Ok, so I have sourced a Volvo b280e engine, computer and wiring harness/loom... complete engine incl alternator, exh pipes, even air con pump (which I am going to remove).

It’s an even fire, MPFI model, good nick (though I think will be rebuilding)...

Now... for the fun stuff... as this is all going into my 504, a few things I’d like to know... for one, turbos... I have also sourced a pair of brand new t3 turbos at very reasonable prices, though I have not bought them yet, as I don’t know if they’re big enough, the difficulty of adapting them to my engine, and in reality, I know nothing of turbo charging cars, will I need to get diff pistons to lower the CR? Any help in the turbo department would be much appreciated... the whole turbo thing has always interested me, but a lack of capital, and experience with any sort of turbo has stopped me.

As for the 504, I have already started on the brakes (have fitted '82 504 struts, and am sourcing some 264 brakes... thanks pugrambo), and have pulled out the engine. :banana:

The 604 cross member shouldn’t be too hard to find, but ill let post a wtb if I can’t find one. In any case, it will be at least 6 months before I get it on the road... I want it all to be as close to perfect as it can be.

Now, sticking to the engine, as that’s what this post is really all about... I will be pulling it apart to bare nothingness, inspecting, honing, machining, and replacing all that I need... I just got quoted a scary and ridiculous sum of 350 for a vrs kit... anyone know where to source one for a reasonable price? Or for that matter, any parts for it for a reasonable price?

So... mods I plan to do...

Bottom end
New bearings
Renew/freshen everything

Head
Port/polish
Clean up
Machine

Camshaft
As suggested, will contact crow cams for a nice cam

Turbo
2x t3 turbos, running a nice, not crazy boost

Extractors/exhaust manifold
Any ideas?

Exhaust
Straight through 2½ or 3 inch

looks like its going to be plenty more :adrink: before its all done, but its well underway now!



Janek

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Sandwood in Melbourne is very good for Volvo parts.
I would get the thing going first, forget the turbos for the time being, particularly as the motor is in good nick. You'll find that even the timing chains and tensioners will cost lots of dollars (if you can source the parts).
What compression ratio will you be running? If you use the standard pistons there is likely to be far too much compression after it is turboed, one of the reasons oddfire is running his on LPG.

Graham Wallis

i dont know what CR im after exactly, but i think close to 8:1 is a reasonable figure... im looking at 10lbs boost...

ive heard talk of some pistons from a ford? that fit pretty much straight in, though i dont know much about any of this...

i'd really like to find somewhjere i can source the parts for realtively cheap, but that may not be possible

Janek said:

Head
Port/polish
Clean up
Machine

Janek

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Volvo recommend that you do not machine the heads on PRV V6. In fact, recommend is too mild a word, they say you musn't machine the heads under any circumstances. Could be a ploy to make people buy new, extremely expensive heads (would a car company do this) or it could be true. I don't know if this applies to the earlier B27/B28 motors only. What does Peugeot say about machining the heads on a PRV V6?


Also, wouldn't a VRS kit for the Peugeot motor of the same capacity fit the Volvo motor. The block would be the same but the heads might be different but as long as the water galleries are in the same place they should be a fit.

Ren

REN TIN TIN said:

Volvo recommend that you do not machine the heads on PRV V6. In fact, recommend is too mild a word, they say you musn't machine the heads under any circumstances. Could be a ploy to make people buy new, extremely expensive heads (would a car company do this) or it could be true. I don't know if this applies to the earlier B27/B28 motors only. What does Peugeot say about machining the heads on a PRV V6?

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Hmm, Renault have the same instruction in their MR manuals, applies to 140-144-z7v-z7w-z7u series engines (early to late production). Does anyone know if there is a technical reason for this? Is there any firsthand knowledge out there?
Interestingly they give a tolerance for head height (which is about 15 thou from memory) which suggests that if a head was unpitted and had been heat straightened it could be carefully resurfaced and remain in tolerance.

Janek, how can you prefer the even fire to the odd fire exhaust note especially with a big straight through exhaust......

Farmerdave

because i know nothing of the oddfire note, and only have access to an evenfire engine.. ps i like the idea of efi

farmerdave said:

Hmm, Renault have the same instruction in their MR manuals, applies to 140-144-z7v-z7w-z7u series engines (early to late production). Does anyone know if there is a technical reason for this? Is there any firsthand knowledge out there?


Farmerdave

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My thoughts on the no machining rule on both the Douvrin OHC 4 and PRV V6 motors is that the factory may find the timing belt and chain tension critical items. You machine the heads, you place the chain/belt auto adjusters at the extreme ends of the travel once the car has a few miles under its belt, possibly leading to jumped teeth towards the replacement life of the chain/belt. Having a no machining policy means that the owner would not be able to complain to the factory in the case a car jumps a timing tooth with a machined head/s.

Also on the V6, the intake manifold will have to be machined to suit the machined heads, otherwise it may not fit.

Simon said:

My thoughts on the no machining rule on both the Douvrin OHC 4 and PRV V6 motors is that the factory may find the timing belt and chain tension critical items. You machine the heads, you place the chain/belt auto adjusters at the extreme ends of the travel once the car has a few miles under its belt, .

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The story I heard was a variation on this. Namely, with the timing chain tentioners at the end of their travel, it diverts oil away from the cam leading to accelerated wear.

Simon said:

Also on the V6, the intake manifold will have to be machined to suit the machined heads, otherwise it may not fit.

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Don't know about the inlet manifold but the holes on the front timing chain cover allegedly won't line up any more resulting in leaking. I find this hard to believe that skimming say, 5 - 10 thou is going to make any difference to the bolt holes lining up.

Ren

All: I’ve said this many times, year for year PRVs irrespective of manufacturer the castings are identical and interchangeable except for he lower sump of the Renault/Delorean and FWD cars. So for the same capacity head gaskets are interchangeable.

Heads can be machined I’ve done it many times however some issues can arise. You can get valves hitting pistons depending on lift and you may need to skim the timing cover so the rocker gasket has a level surface. I have never had chain tensioners come out on any of my engines and the failures I have seen are where the plastic came off the curved chain guides. With head machining the inlet manifold mating does not suffer. The head ports are way bigger then the manifold port and so allows lots of room for movement, I have never machined a manifold and advise against it.

Janek Janek Janek you have much to learn.
Well OK or as you start most of your posts “OK well….” Let me start with a basic assumption that you do not gain any pleasure with burning cash, if I am correct in this assumption can I give some advice. Lets go point by point.

You have a B280, this is good, well done, do you actually have it in your possession? If you do immediately remove the spark plugs and oil up the bores, they rust easily, also drain all coolant from the Block.

You do not actually have the two T3s and this is good because they will probably be too big although you did not say what trim or size or exhaust and compressor housings you will use. I can advise based on first hand experience that twin T2s T2.5s, TD04Ls are plenty big enough, I’m taking a punt on T28s with small exhaust housings which may yet prove on the big side. Laggy big boost turbo cars are a pain in the arse, a couple of T2s will laglessly punch you away from traffic lights and still have big power at the top end,

Why would you buy new turbos, this is extravagant, get some cheapies from John Verban or a wrecker, even if you get a few dungers this is better than spending $2k to $3k on newies. My T28s from John Verban were $250 each and they are in good condition. I’m using T28s because they are cheap. Save this cash for the construction of manifolds and head work.

Its often not necessary (this is based on experience) to replace everything with new bits, in fact since you may get greedy with boost and blow it up a few times you should simply apply good engineering practice in the engine rebuild. New parts are seldom an enhancement to performance. There are no nuts and bolts that need replacement. In PRVs its often unnecessary to replace bearings or grind cranks, the pistons in evenfires are quite robust, the top ring is lower down the piston and so is less susceptible to damage from detonation. Mill the tops off the pistons to reduce comp, 8 to 1 is a bit low with EFI and a knock sensor. Yes, do hone the sleeves and replace the piston rings. I use “total Seal” Gapless rings. Because of the cam oiling issues absolute cleanliness is necessary at assembly.

The actual result you will get will not be in direct proportion to how much you spend on parts, it will come from attention to detail in the overall process of the conversion.

I await the next carefully thought out poser.

i have paid for the engine, will be picking it up tomorrow.. i'm quite pleased with it. youre right, i dont like the idea of burning cash, i dont have enough of it :S

as for the turbo, its a T3 Turbo .42 .48 (Stage III) brand new, in the box, and is approx 250 dollars. i figured i might give it a go, but if its too big, then its too big and i'll look for something smaller...

as for trim size/exhaust housing, i have no idea... like i said before, im completely new to turbos, so any help will be appreciated, i dont even know my basics with turbos really...

also, i spotted a turbo on a 760 4 cyl at my local wrecker, and he wants 150 for it.. it seems to be ok.

i'm looking into finding somewhere for cheap gaskets, but so far, no luck... i have a mate who works at an acl distribution centre in auburn, sydney, so i should be able to get the rings through him.

lowering the cr. how much is the question i guess...

will post photos of the engine as soon as i get my hands on it. have already seen it, there are no obvious signs of head corrosion as far as i can see, though theres the token coagulated oil around the sump gasket...

finally, is it a big job to turbo the sucker? or would i be best off sticking to cams and tune the computer? ideally, id like to keep the amount i spend on the engine as little as possible, but keeping it under 3 grand as a max. (ie, about 2400 taking out the cost of the engine)...

this has been a less thought about post, as im in a tad bit of a rush today, and just wanted to answer your questions.

thanks all
Janek

Janek said:

finally, is it a big job to turbo the sucker? or would i be best off sticking to cams and tune the computer? ideally, id like to keep the amount i spend on the engine as little as possible, but keeping it under 3 grand as a max. (ie, about 2400 taking out the cost of the engine)...

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Is it going to be your daily driver (i.e. do you have another car)?

The more mods you do, the more time you need to toy with the set-up and the more time off the road.

As OddfireV6 indicated, the quality of the outcome is proportional to the time and effort put into it, more than anything else. Obviously there's less effort involved with a naturally aspirated set-up, but if the car is not your everday driving car, then you've got more time to spend to do a good job of a wilder set-up (i.e. you don't have to have the car ready to drive again by every monday morning).

Dave

dave

its a bit of a yes and no there... at the moment ive got a crappy little mazda to get me around, so i'd like the pug to be my daily driver. atm my mazda has spent about 20% of its registered time off the road for repairs, and i hardly think it'd be more with the v6 pug.

i aim to have the car completed my april next year (when rego expires on the mazda). the pug has been on stilts for a good few months as it is, so i do want to get it done properly.

ideally, i guess its a balance of performance and durability i'm after, so i figure that the 7ish months left of rego will be enough time to complete it, and have it done well enough for it not to break easily (at least not like the mazda... ive spent 1500 minimum keeping it roadworthy...)

Janek, You've taken on a very big job, as I said just get the thing going in standard form, you will be more than happy with the result.
No one really knows how to modify one of these yet, by the time you are ready for more power there will be a lot more information avaiable. Have you sorted out the clutch you will be using? No one has yet come up with a satisfactory solution for this.

Graham Wallis

Janek said:

dave

its a bit of a yes and no there... at the moment ive got a crappy little mazda to get me around, so i'd like the pug to be my daily driver. atm my mazda has spent about 20% of its registered time off the road for repairs, and i hardly think it'd be more with the v6 pug.

i aim to have the car completed my april next year (when rego expires on the mazda). the pug has been on stilts for a good few months as it is, so i do want to get it done properly.

ideally, i guess its a balance of performance and durability i'm after, so i figure that the 7ish months left of rego will be enough time to complete it, and have it done well Janek enough for it not to break easily (at least not like the mazda... ive spent 1500 minimum keeping it roadworthy...)

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atm it will be auto till i can figure out the clutch situation...

I'm told the reason you shouldn't machine a dourvin head is because the camshaft runs directly on the head surface and if the head is warped and gets remachined, the cam bores will be aout of alignment and you will destroy the camshaft runs.

If the head is not warped and is just being skimed to change compression ratios, I would think it would be okay...

Just a long shot, but what is the bore diameter on a PRV V6???.... I don't suppose Dourvin 4 pistons from a Fuego would fit?

Aus spec Fuegos only run about an 8.5:1 C/R ....

mistareno said:

Just a long shot, but what is the bore diameter on a PRV V6???.... I don't suppose Dourvin 4 pistons from a Fuego would fit?...

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The 2664cc V6 has the same diameter pistons (88mm) as the Fuego, so yes they may be the same. It would make sense, since they're made in the same factory and if I'm not mistaken they share rocker arms. Somebody will hopefully know the answer to this.

The 2849cc has 91mm pistons and the 2975cc has 93mm pistons.

Dave

Janek said:

ideally, i guess its a balance of performance and durability i'm after, so i figure that the 7ish months left of rego will be enough time to complete it,

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OK, if you want to get it to daily driver standard within 7 months then DON'T muck around with a turbo.

You're going to have your work cut out for you as it is doing everything to a decent standard in that time. This is assuming you work or study 4 or 5 days a week.

Dave

What made you decide not to go with the SR20? Oh well, good luck with the V6. A new T3 for $250? If you decide not to buy it could you PM me with sellers contact details? It may be a good upgrade for the SR. May I suggest 2 Nissan GTR T25 turbos as they are perfect for a medium boosted 2.6 litre and they should be quite cheap as alot of the GTR boys ditch them for bigger ones. Also for mild to medium boost 8:1 is a bit low - the SR uses 8.5:1 which is fine for all but huge boost levels...assuming you go the turbo route that is.

New T3s for $250? I find this unbelievable, are you sure about this, if they are I'll have half a dozen for later. Can I also have the details please.